The OrangeZ Debrief: From OCE to abroad, and where NA has fallen behind in CS2 coaching

If you're a local and know your DFRAG lore, you may remember an incredibly loud Aussie voice ringing out in the DFRAG Studio a few times this year.

No, I ain't talking about TjP. I'm talking about coach Leroy "OrangeZ" Burns, who has returned home after an extended stint coaching some of the best and brightest in NA CS.

The 22-year-old sports psychologist has linked up with his old crew at ex-Arcade — who have themselves been acquired by KZG — ahead of the next season of competition.

But given the season's quietened down after a flurry of events in October, it's given OrangeZ time to reflect upon something very few Aussies get a chance to do in esports — share their craft overseas.

To do so, he's had to look back to the beginning. “Counter-Strike has always been a massive passion of mine," he said to DFRAG. "But I thought, how could I impact something that I love in a positive way without playing?”

OrangeZ decided early on that playing wasn't going to be his path in Counter-Strike. But coaching? That was right up his alley.

“It turns out it would be through coaching and seeing a sort of seed grow into a plant that is fruitful — it’s such a rewarding experience for me.

"You’ll hear a lot of gardening analogies out of me because there’s that nurturing aspect of it, you’re watching and helping something grow," he laughed.

“I share that same philosophy with coaching. I love nurturing and watching a player grow throughout my time, and having even just a small impact in that field or that journey, it’s more than enough for me.”

The results speak for themselves; Jae "74LOR" Webb, who has played under OrangeZ's tutelage across several iterations of squads, helped plenty of praise on his coaching prowess.

"Working with OrangeZ was incredible," 74LOR said to DFRAG. "His presence inside and outside the server is something every team needs. He can turn a team of five mates into a disciplined, well-oiled machine.

"There was never a time where I felt we weren't improving or pushing ourselves for greatness, and that's reflected in our results when he was still on the team, with us taking down opponents like Mindfreak and GZ near the end of his stint with us.

"It's not just random chance that got him the call-up to NA, it's the experience he's had with his teams. He's taught me lessons I'll keep with me for the rest of my playing career."

The beginnings: From ins and outs of Aussie grassroots, to the world of NA varsity esports

Tell me about your first encounter with esports, and Counter-Strike in particular.

“My first encounter in esports was actually with Counter-Strike. It was one of those things I used to get really into at high school, but mainly lower-tier esports and grassroots.

“You know that kid in the class that knows everything about trains? Well, I was like that for Australian esports. I knew all the teams in AU; lower-tier, higher-tier, all the players… stuff like that. That was my initial exposure to the game.”
Leroy "OrangeZ" Burns

“I used to have a really soft spot for Tainted Minds back in the day. I loved that org, love that team and its players, and you look at the players from that team now, some of them are the best in Australia."

But your first big call-up as a coach wasn't in Australia, right? Of all places to get your main start, it was in North America?

“It's pretty unheard of, being an Aussie fella, for sure! I got my first call up coaching collegiate Counter-Strike for the University of South Dakota in the U.S. That was a massive thing for me to do, it brought me overseas for my first gig.

"I had a friend over in North America who always knew I had a gift of coaching, and it was one of those things where they were looking for a Counter-Strike coach in their varsity division. I had no idea that varsity Counter-Strike existed. I had a trial, but then it was on me to impress from there. The rest is history.”

"It's the same for Australia as well though: Coaches are in low supply and in high demand. It's one of those things in North America, they will break their backs to get a really decent coach.

"Once you're in that pool where you've got a little bit of rep behind you and a little bit of experience — that’s when teams come to you, teams message you, they want you.

"I say I got lucky, but I wouldn't be there if I wasn't good at what I do, so a little bit of ego about it, but yeah."

What was your initial goal when you made the move overseas? Was it to just climb up rosters until you hit the tier-one, or more like developing a project from rags to riches?

"Rags to riches for sure. That first team was an absolute rabble, they weren't good at all. Under my tenure, they didn't win a single map, which was interesting.

"After that opportunity ended, I sort of pulled myself back and went ‘Am I actually able to do this? Is this something that I can do or am I just biting off way more than I could chew?’

"I stopped, took a breather, re-evaluated myself, and I got myself another opportunity and I just gave it my all. That next opportunity is what threw me into a whole different world."

Was it an easy move to make, to leave everything behind in Australia and move continents for the coaching gig?

"When does an Aussie coach ever get an opportunity like that, to go and coach overseas and take a massive step forward in their career? It was a no brainer for me."

"Look, I wanted to stay with my team, but I chatted with [one of my players] Mechanical, and he said I’d be stupid not to take it. There’s always going to be a home for you when you come back, but the invaluable experience to gain is just too good not to do it. AU CS is always going to be here.

"I always had that in the back of my mind, but I pushed myself over the line and that got me to where I needed to be."

OrangeZ's approach to coaching — and why he's exactly what NA needs

Your thoughts on general approach to coaching: I’ve always seen it as a balance between providing analysis and strategy, but also motivating the team emotionally and mentally — and very few coaches hit both markers. Do you agree that coaches tend to lean in one direction over the other?

"I think that there's a couple of styles of coaching, like the ‘chair-slapper.’ I watched a lot of Kassad, actually; his interviews, the way he broke games down. I really learned to coach by watching everything around him.

"That was who was my first, like… I looked up to this person, regardless of what he says from a personal view. I think [Kassad’s] coaching was really, really beneficial, and it’s what made that Renegades roster so successful overseas.

"He employed that team-first mentality and that passion. He’s the reason why AZR got so animated and so loud, it brought the team to that next level. Being that motivational voice, it’s something that I think I share a similarity with in the way I coach.

"I’m not as analytical, I'd say; I understand the game, but it’s not as much my focus, in the same way I’d rather watch a motivational, emotional sports movie over a data analytical one.

Do you think it's possible for a coach to do both jobs; to be the brain, heart, and soul behind the players and pushing them forward?

"No, you've got to have a team behind you. You look at any really good sports team, they don't just have one coach. They've got an assistant coach, an assistant to the assistant coach, a forwards coach, a midfield coach… all those types of things.

"I’d rather want someone who's behind me picking me up when I've fallen down. and taking me to that next level."
Leroy "OrangeZ" Burns

"The more eggs that you have in your basket, the better. The one thing you don't want to do as a coach, in my experience, you don't want to put too much food on your plate to where you're wasting food."

"You're gonna get tired, you're gonna get full very quickly and it's just gonna make you bloated and unable to do the job the way it's meant to. Having someone who's an analysis coach is really good as well as having a mental coach as well."

What do you say to these teams that perhaps overlook the importance of a coach or sports psychologist? There are reasons for it, like budget constraints or not believing they need such support at a grassroots or domestic level…

"I look at it from a youth perspective. When you’re a kid and you go and play a sport, you continue to play for a couple of reasons; A, you’re absolutely obsessed with it, or B, you’ve got someone behind you giving you a pat on the shoulder after the game, encouraging you to keep going.

"You always need someone in your corner, otherwise you’ll lose focus, you’ll make inconsistencies in your gameplay — and the worst thing, you won’t even know it. It’s crucial that you have someone there giving you these corrections, all the way through the lower grades and into full professional play."

Back to OCE for you, but I want your thoughts on esports and how it's going in the region. We hear it from the players and orgs, but never from someone with your background. It felt like we were breaking new ground across all levels of play before COVID happened, then it plummeted and we haven’t seen it rebound since. What do you put that down to?

"If you asked me this question maybe a year and a half ago, I'd say I'd be more inclined to agree with you. At the moment though, with the way that it's played out, it's at a stage where I don't think I've been more excited to come back to Australian Counter-Strike, ever.

"I think that Counter-Strike in OCE is in a really, really good spot at the moment. Looking at the way North America is and sort of comparing and contrasting, I think that we could be a lot worse off in terms of the talent pool that we have.

"I think that we've got a really solid pool of players in OCE at the moment that are always battling for that next spot.

"With DFRAG being so heavily involved, and Mav being the godfather of OCE CS, I think it's really bringing quality to the scene and putting our name out there in the region, saying that OCE shouldn’t be slept on and that it should be invested into."

Where OCE has pulled ahead of NA

Do you draw any comparisons with where Oceania is at compared to North America, following the time you’ve spent overseas in the region?

"Like OCE, I think that North American Counter-Strike is the best it’s been in a long time. There are a lot of organisations that want to get involved and a lot of players with raw, untapped ability, but they lack the direction in where to go and how to use the tools they’ve been gifted with.

"Players like tatm, DETONATE’s IGL, is an absolutely insane creature of a player in a good way, I adore his playstyle dearly. Seeing that pure talent that these tier-two and tier-three players have… I never got that impression four or five years ago.

"The players are as hungry and as keen as ever to get to where they need to be, where their names are up in lights — it’s very exciting, I’ll say that much.

"As for OCE versus NA… when I first came over, I was thinking ‘Why did they pick an Aussie like me?’ I honestly think it’s a cultural aspect.

"I think the average North American doesn’t have the culture or understanding of what having a good mental is in Counter-Strike."
Leroy "OrangeZ" Burns

"They understand the analytical part of it, but not what goes on inside the head that gets your team over the line. Aussies I feel have that — it’s drilled a lot more when we’re young — but they don’t have the analytical side of the game. Aussies look at the bigger picture, while I think Americans are laser-focused, that’s where I see the difference.

"There’s also the population. [NA] has a shit ton more players that come in and out, whereas Australian teams are forced to invest in players for a longer period of time to try and get the best out of them, a diamond in the rough.

"In NA, you’ve got players that are good for one week, then shit the next, and the teams don’t commit to the project and instead just cycle. It’s like collegiate football in the way players are churned in and out, whereas, say, AFL players get more of a chance to get it right."

You’re not seeing any level of growth, development, or approach to sports psychology in North America? Like, at all? That's a bold statement, no?

"I'm seeing zero development of that, Taf. I'm seeing absolute zero. It's not even a focus point.

"I've been a part of a team in North America where there has been a three-hour post-match debrief, and it's been the same analytical in-game points being regurgitated for those three hours. It's not healthy. It's not productive.

"But I don't blame them though, because they've never been shown the right way to do it. They've always had someone be like ‘This is wrong, that’s wrong, you’ve done this wrong, and here’s how it’s wrong.’ No one's ever gone ‘This is how you do it,’ or ‘We should try this next time,’ or ‘All good, heads up, no worries.’

"They’ve never had that gentle push, it’s always been a shove back. I don’t think North America is going to get there anytime soon. But as a result of that, I think it’s why there have been teams that have spoken to me and have started to realise the difference there, and the value that I can bring with that different perspective."

A sharing of expertise is in order, you think? Aussies off to Europe and NA to coach and bring that culture, while EU and NA sends the analytical expertise?

"That's gotta be what the fix is. I think that if you were to get a tier-two analyst from North America and pair [them] alongside someone like myself, you would be able to understand what is needed from both sides.

"It would bridge that gap that would get a team like Ground Zero, or Abyssal, or these other challenger tier-two teams to that next level. The big problem is again, that funding for it in Australia, or the lack of vision from the NA side where they are just near-sighted."

To the future; what's coming next, both for OrangeZ and the scene's next crop

What realities and expectations do you think new esports players and coaches face in the modern day? What advice do you have to anyone embarking on a career in esports now?

"One of the things that people need to understand is you shouldn't be doing this for money. You shouldn't be doing this for a salary. You should be doing this because you love it and the passion's there. That should be your number one priority. If it's not, you've got it all wrong.

"People must understand that orgs in Australia aren't willing to commit to salaries and that there’s not enough funding or exposure for the region itself right now, unless it's these big LANs or tournaments, which are hard to get into.

"Some people I know still have those rose-tinted glasses on where they see some old names that were big back in the day, back when we had huge orgs rolling around — and not realising they were the lucky few with the skill or passion to make it work.

"The mindset you should have is to be that player, coach, caster, supporter of the scene that has the undying passion to get us back to where we were, and giving back instead of taking more."

Could you foresee yourself working in sports psychology in traditional sports, even if it were overseas again?

"I definitely could. I came from an AFL background. A lot of my relatives have been heavily involved in coaching in AFL. My father, for example, was big into coaching and nurturing the young boys and girls into men and women.

"Who knows though, AFL maybe, other sports entirely maybe — but for me right now, Counter-Strike is my full, 100 percent focus. I’m very excited to continue doing what I’m doing best."

You can catch OrangeZ backing his "new" squad KZG, who debuted with a huge 13-5 win over Fruju in ESEA Season 29 Intermediate on Monday night.

For more news, interviews, and insights into OCE and Asian CS2, stay tuned to DFRAG.gg.